• Lately I’ve been praying for clarity on the topic of Calvinism and predestination. A couple of weeks ago my husband and I were chatting over the phone during his lunch break and discusssing the two major views in the Church… Calvinism and Arminianism. My husband disagrees with Calvinism arguing that it goes against the nature of God. For him it was settled. For me, the stubborn one, I need a firm and unshakable biblical foundation for why I believe anything now. I have no more years to invest in following false doctrines so, I’m beginning my deep look into both Calvinism and Arminianism… and everything in between. This will likely be several blogs as I encounter people who shed light on the doctrine through the word of God. If you come across this, leave a comment sharing what you believe and why.
• I’ve been listening to several preachers on this topic like the late Voddie Baucham, the late John MacArthur, Paul Washer and R.C. Sproul all of which are Calvinist, like my dear old great grandma Severine (pronounced Siv-ver-rin). This woman was so hard my dad told me that she once caught a kid stealing eggs from her coup, so she cut off his hand, beat him with it…sewed it back on and made him work off the cost of the thread she used. He was joking of course… it was just that her beliefs left little room for mercy or grace. A persons beliefs aren’t what they proclaim they believe, it’s what they actually live out in their lives. My Uncle Ray loved her dearly, but when he became a Preacher and Pastor, he was an Arminian and fully rejected Calvinism. He did have this conversation with me… but I was too young in the Lord and in life in general to comprehend and appreciate the doctrine he was sharing at the time. This leads me to where I am now, out and about on social media asking the question, “Are you a Calvinist, if so, why or if not, why not.” The first Pastor I encountered was C— S—, our conversation began like this under a post he made on Facebook:

Angie Paton: Relax before you read this question… I’m not picking a fight, I’m seeking answers…. Are you a Calvinist?

C— S— – Pastor: Angie Paton thank you for asking in the manner that you did. No I am not a Calvinist. I am against all five points of TULIP.

Pastor C—S— is referring to the following Calvinism belief points referred to as TULIP.

• T – Total Depravity: Sin has corrupted every part of human nature, leaving individuals unable to choose God or save themselves.
• U – Unconditional Election: Before the foundation of the world, God chose specific individuals for salvation based solely on His will, not based on foreseen merit or faith
• .L – Limited Atonement (or Particular Redemption): Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross was intended specifically to secure the salvation of the elect, rather than making salvation possible for everyone.
• I – Irresistible Grace: When God calls the elect to salvation, they cannot resist it; the Holy Spirit overcomes their resistance and brings them to faith.
• P – Perseverance of the Saints: Those whom God has elected and called will be kept by His power to the end, ensuring they cannot lose their salvation.

Angie Paton: C—S— – Pastor I listen to a few teachers who teach Calvinism… and they have their scriptures…they seem correct however, the one where it Says for Whom he did FOREKNOW, he also predestinated… is never really explained in a way that is satisfactory. I find it confusing and have been praying about it… Would you mind explaining to me what you believe about this with scripture so I can look into it… or even suggest a book. As it sits, I believe that God’s grace is all I need for salvation through the Blood of Jesus… nothing I could do or can do can add to that or take away from it because Jesus knew what a complete shipwreck I was when he saved my soul… and I’m delighted as a peach not to have the burden of my salvation on my shoulders as I am a known failure… having said that, I serve the Lord the best I can, out of love to honor Jesus and the salvation he gave to me. I’m coming out of Word of Faith ala Hagin… a few years ago… I laid it all down and began again in the word… my goal was not to believe anything that I could not find written there… but with this topic, there are so many voices saying so many things. I;m between Pastors at the moment too. Any help would be a blessing.

• The scriptures I asked about —Romans 8:29-30²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

C— S— – Pastor: Angie Paton amen! I appreciate your desire to know what the word of God has to say and not necessarily what man has to say.
The best way to explain this issue is to always take the scripture in context. This is why I only use the King James version 1611. I believe every word to be correct and precise when it comes to the word of God. If you have not heard any teaching on that, I would be happy to share with you thoughts about that as well.
The foreknowledge of God and the subject of predestination are clearly taught in the Bible. However, Calvinist misapply the teaching in a horrible way.
Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Foreknowledge is not the same thing as pre-determination. God exists outside of time, which means he is in the past present and future all at the same time. He sees events before they ever happen. However, just because he knows what is going to happen before it does it doesn’t mean that he made it happen that way.
In this passage of scripture, it does not say predestined to go to heaven. It does say predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. . Since God knew you were going to get saved before you did, he predestined you to be conformed to be like Jesus Christ. It is all because he knew that you would choose Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour.

(to be contiued)

Pastor C—S— states:

• “The best way to explain this issue is to always take the scripture in context.” I completely agree with him…many problems understanding the scriptures can be solved by doing this.

• “The foreknowledge of God and the subject of predestination are clearly taught in the Bible. However, Calvinist misapply the teaching in a horrible way.“
  
• “Foreknowledge is not the same thing as pre-determination.God exists outside of time, which means he is in the past present and future all at the same time. He sees events before they ever happen. However, just because he knows what is going to happen before it does it doesn’t mean that he made it happen that way.”
  Pastor C—S— describes omnipresence in this way, and I’m going to share here how I heard one person describe it… this person, and I forget who, said that when God looks at us and all of time since creation, he can see our life laid out from start to finish in a single glance…along with everyone else. So we establish that foreknowledge of our lives, start to finish, is known by God. Pastor C—S— then goes on to point out that foreknowledge is not the same thing as God causing things to happen… it just means he knew the events that would happen.
  
  My thoughts: God is our father… he desires good things for us and even used the scripture about his fatherly goodness towards us saying in Luke 11:13 ¹³ If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? I’m not trying to misinterpret this verse, but while this verse is about something else, it still shows the desire of God to give us good things like we want to give our own earthly children. God, like mankind desires good things for his children. We humans begin setting the lives of our children up for success when they’re still in the womb. We eat right, we set up the home for safety to nurture their growth and development… we set up a college fund etc. God’s college fund is his hand upon our lives setting up our future so that the journey is successful and we end up conformed to the image of Jesus. So, when he knew we were going to be his children, he started planning our future.

(continuing on with Pastor C—S—‘s statement)
In this passage of scripture, it does not say predestined to go to heaven. It does say predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

• Well here is a record scratcher for the Calvinist doctrine… the removal of the assumption that predestination means for heaven and using sound hermeneutics, allowing the scripture to say what it clearly says… it means predestination to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, Jesus. This is an important difference.

. Since God knew you were going to get saved before you did, he predestined you to be conformed to be like Jesus Christ. It is all because he knew that you would choose Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour.Another common passage among Calvinist is Ephesians 1.
Ephesians 1:3-12 KJV
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
All of what is stated in this passage of scripture is based on verse number 12. The Bible says who first trusted in Christ. What that means is before everything else happened the first thing that happened was we trusted in Christ. Because we trusted in Christ, God chose us and predestinated us. However, the first thing that happened was we had to trust in Christ.
The Bible teachs very clearly that man has free will and the Bible also says whosoever will may come. That is a core fundamental belief of God’s word.
I hope this helped.

Pastor C—S— points out that to arrive at the proper conclusion the sequence of events matter. Here in these verses he used he points out that verse 12 gives the order for the events:
First: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace” Verse 7 &12
Second: “he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence” Verse 8
Third:“Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:” Verse 9
Forth: We obtain our inheritance when the time of the gathering together comes when this time is over. Verses 10-11

Salvation, growth, final redemption… the predestination here is that we are set up to grow in wisdom and prudence after accepting the Lord Jesus as out Savior. It stands to reason and makes perfect sense too. Once the Lord sees we accepted Jesus as out Savior, he goes right to work on us getting us ready for eternity with him. It’s at that moment of salvation when we renouce our citizenship of the world and receive our citizenship from the kingdom of God.

Angie Paton:This is how I understand it… it seems to me that God would be unfair if he selected people to be saved and give grace to…. and others he rejected… Calvinist Bring up Jacob and Esau… but “Esau have I hated” seems to be because he did not value the things of God… he traded his birthright for food… In my thinking the part about hating him was his behavior, not the man.
Also, my uncle was a Baptist Pastor/Preacher…. he hipped me to the KJV and even went so far as to have me study a book about new age versions of the Bible that changed scripture and excluded the mention of the blood in a few places. I do sometimes use other versions in blogs in addition, but very rarely.

• My Uncle told me to go down to our local Christians book store and buy a copy of “New Age Bible Versions” . He said I would have to ask the owner to order it because they refuse to stock this book. I went down and it was just as he said, I had to order it. There is a lot of information in the book. Way before this book though… my uncle insisted I use the KJV exclusively. A lot of people say the old language is hard to understand, I found that the Holy Spirit helped me come to understand the word just fine as it is written in the KJV. I will sometimes us other versions in addition to KJV on this blog and during Bible study, but the one I depend on exclusively is KJV.

C— S— – Pastor: Doesn’t God choose who will go to Heaven and who will not go to Heaven?
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God gave every man a “free will.” God does not choose who goes to Heaven and Hell. God wants all to be in Heaven. He wants us to choose Christ as our personal Saviour.

C— S— – Pastor: FALSE WAYS GOD HATES
Psalm 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
“False Plans of Salvation”
~Part 6~
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Predestination
There is a teaching prevalent in Christianity that says that God has already predetermined who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. They teach that man has no choice in the matter and that God is the One who has determined everything.
It is so obvious to me on many levels that this teaching is unscriptural and simply untrue.
1) IT IS NOT GOD’S DESIRE THAT ANYBODY GO TO HELL.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2) JESUS DIED FOR EVERYONE NOT JUST THOSE WHOM HE PREDETRMINED TO GO TO HEAVEN.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3) GOD’S FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH PREDETERMINATION.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Since God foreknew who would get saved, He predetermined them to be “conformed to the image of his Son.” It does not say that He predetermined them to go to Heaven!
4) WE MUST FIRST CHOOSE TO BE SAVED.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Verse 12 tells us that since we FIRST trusted in Christ, God predestinated us to be to the praise of His glory. Again, we had to choose to trust first.
5) TO CHOOSE TO RECEIVE IS AN ACT OF THE WILL WHICH IS REQUIRED FOR US TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
6) WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME TO CHRIST.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
7) THE REASON PEOPLE DO NOT GET SAVED IS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT COME TO CHRIST, NOT BECAUSE GOD PREDETERMINED THEM TO GO TO HELL.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
8)IF PREDESTINATION WAS TRUE, THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO EVER GO SOUL WINNING.
Since we would not be able to make any difference whatsoever, why bother going soul winning? If everything was already predetermined, what will be will be.
9) THE DEVIL IS THE AUTHOR OF THIS FALSE DOCTRINE.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The devil wants as many people to go to Hell as possible and he will try to deceive us into going there. Don’t let him deceive you with this false doctrine!

I left PastorC— S—‘s final summery just as it is without anything to add because it was so complete. I love that his teachings are filled with scripture in context. One of the problems I had looking into the Calvinist doctrine was that if it were true, then why bother praying for anyone to find Jesus… or witness to anyone… if salvation was not a part of the will of man, then our actions don’t matter. Why did the apostles have to die if salvation wasn’t offered to everyone and those who were going to be saved would be no matter what? The God that is depicted in the doctrine is not in keeping with the God presented in the Bible that loved mankind so much he sent his only begotten Son here to die for our sins. I can see the hand of God on my life since I was born…so I am only left with a single question: Because God knew I was going to be saved at 19 years old, did he keep me from dying all those times I became sick… the times when my foolishness placed me in harms way?


Angie Paton: C— S— – Pastor Thank you for your response…. I’m going to copy these and spend time reading and studying them prayerfully.

C— S— – Pastor: Angie Paton I have a website that has Bible doctrine books that might be a help as well in other areas. If you would like to read these whenever you can. I will be praying for you. God bless!